Thoughts about Premium Economy

I went to Vegas with BMI in their PE.

My main complaint was the seats!!! Same width as normal economy, but much more leg room and recline!

My best feature was the food service! They came to my seat and took my order, then after take off, delivered my food to me. Calling me Mr Danno each time they spoke!!! A nice touch! I feel virgin could win a lot of points, and it should not cost them ANY money to do!

Danno

[fozzyo]

Originally posted by original bob
They don`t really add any extra cost to the airline but they do give the impression of being "special"

Exactly, thats all I think that needs to happen for PE. If they improve the product too much, as has been said previously it could be seen to de-value UC. Not something Virgin or UC Pax would want to see i'm sure.

But they do need to do somethig to ensure people realise that PE is very different from other carriers.

Foz xx

I have had some pretty bad experiences with Virgin PE, which may actually be to do with my expectations. I don't really feel that PE is good value for money, and is particularly bad on the A340 (I think) where you get 3 in the middle. What is that all about. As a single traveller paying a premium price (yes I know it's not that much of a premium, but remember PE can still run you over £1000) having the middle seat of three is absolutely aweful. No elbow room, the worst leg room. Given a choice, on the A340 I would rather have one of the 2 seat economy seats that the middle PE seat.
As the UCS is now fantastic (with the possible exception of having to get up to change from seat to bed unlike BA...) I think they could do worse that to give something similar to the Alitalia UC seats to PE. And do away with that middle PE seat on the A340. Why not not economy seats in the middle and PE seats at the side to solve this problem. The service is no different anyway.

[preiffer]

Originally posted by p17blo
As a single traveller paying a premium price (yes I know it's not that much of a premium, but remember PE can still run you over £1000) having the middle seat of three is absolutely aweful. No elbow room, the worst leg room. Given a choice, on the A340 I would rather have one of the 2 seat economy seats that the middle PE seat.

United's FULL Business Class has a middle seat on the 777...! (2-3-2)

Originally posted by preiffer
Better hand-baggage allocation would be a nice improvement, surely...?

I agree I travel PE to Orlando 4 or 5 times a year and usually take my laptop. This is just about all the hand luggage I can get within the allowance so an increase would be well received. Hope I have done this right as I have just joined today.

Good topic,

I've always found PE excellent value for money; I think it is a lot to do with expectations.

From my point of view 200-300 quid extra for PE over Y is excellent value, 500 is still just about worth it, any more and I'll bite the bullet and go Y (normally with another airline that accepts that most travellers have these awkward things called knees and would like to keep them, please).

W upstairs on a 744 is above par, W on a 343 is a bit below. I went to SA with a couple of friends in January to watch the cricket; talked them into spending the extra 200 quid for W....they are both fairly seasoned travellers, but not on Virgin. This was in the 343 and they loved it, thought it was worth the money and blamed me for converting them.

I'll continue to use it...but Y? On Virgin? Never again...


Vslf

[Pete]

Welcome Florida Man

Yes, you did everything right

Pete

Originally posted by mike-smashing

Originally posted by Jetstreamer

There are printed service flows for all cabins which the crew follow. These dictate the order the services run in, where they start and who delivers them.

Yes, I accept these exist in this form today, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that the VS staff on the forum deviate from the company's policies and risk getting into grief. What I think we are kicking around is ideas of what these service flows could look like in the future, should VS choose to carry out an overhaul of the product.

At the moment, W Class passengers normally receive their first choice of meal. If the menu offered in Premium Economy was different from the main cabin there is a good chance that not all passengers would get their first or even second choice.

This is a very good point. Not exactly sure how you would achieve this without a lot of wastage. Possibly make the hot part of crew meals and revamped W meals the same? (I know this used to be the case when the crew would be fed by loading additional J meals, I believe that crew meals are seperate again these days?)

My comment about the service flows was in response to this comment on page 1:-

"I suggest, and this is only speculation, that the regular inconsistancies in the PE service are not exactly accidental.

Maybe VS staff or Cabin crew would like to comment further?

Neil."


On most routes, the crew meals are the same as the J Class meals - but I wouldn't object to getting two meals on a flight

where you get 3 in the middle.

4 in the middle on 777 and lower deck 747 BA NCW:D

Originally posted by sean modi

Originally posted by Jetstreamer


Although it would be nice to offer a service by hand rather than cart, the layout of certain aircraft in the fleet would make this impractical. When I have travelled BA Club World, I've noticed they offer almost all of their services from a cart - and this is Business Class not an enhanced Economy class.

Hi jetstreamer,

You make a good point, When you say this about BA, are you talking about the lower or upper deck? But BA do have a total of 70 club world seats on a 747 compared to VS who have about half that in PE. I understand that it is impratical, but perhaps it could be a little extra just for people sitting in the 'B' section.

From my experiences of BA Club World it is the same on the Upper Deck and the Main Deck. I'm not against being offered my meal or drinks from a cart as it is often the most efficient way of completing the service. In Premium Economy a service by hand would probably work best on the Upper Deck of the LHR B744.

[Scrooge]

Just my thoughts,I still remember my first PWE flight,upstairs on Tub Belle..thoughts the seat and legroom was nice,but the IFE and food being the same as coach sucked bigtime.From the looks of things nothing much has changed since my last PE flight so i'll stick to finding a good deal on a biz class ticket with AA or United,until i've built up enough miles for a couple of UCS tickets.

I know we all ( mostly) love VS but aren't we being a bit hard on them. Lets look at the facts!!

With the odd exception VS was the first airline to introduce a PE service - and without doubt this has proved extremely popular - I dont think anyone has produced any statsistics but other posters here have said that PE is usually pretty full.

VS was one of the first to have seat back tv or IFE - I can still rememeber travelling in economy in 1988 and being wow'ed by the tiny screen and the games!!!!

In the past few years VS has worked hard to imrpove its UC service and the introduction of UCS has been pretty adventurous - I know its always a debating topic - but surely UC is one of the best services in its class!!

Its also upgraded the Economy product with new seats and new IFE - v-port for example.

So lets give them time to work on the PE product and see what happens - I am sure they will not stand still!!

Come on all you VS staffers - you must have some clues???

I have flown on PE for Ba and Virgin and This is the one thing that virgin is not excelling at. The only upper had Virgin has against BA is the Vport system but this is available in economy. Virgin really has to offer PE passengers somewthing better

Originally posted by Decker
I'm always confused by these sort of comments. Until VS find that they can't sell seats in EC they have no real reason to improve the pitch. They have a finite amount of seats to sell and if they can sell them without adding extra value then why do it?

I would tend to agree with this, same applies to all classes... However, they cant afford to sit back whilst everyone around them improves their service. I saw an advert a few weeks ago for a new airline offering "Business Class" only from London to NYC - Without looking the airline up, I presume them to be offering a seat similar to the PE seating , only with a better than economy-service on board...
If something like this takes off (no pun intended), VS could then be forced into improving their service just to compete, instead of improving now to stay ahead of the competition.

BA were probably sitting back fairly comfortable in 1983 thinking they`d have a near monopoly to US as the British carrier.... Virgin cant afford to sit back now & ignore E / PE cabins whilst others improve their service.

I went EDI - NYC via FRA last April & would agree - the legroom etc on Lufthansa is excellent. Service on board not as good as Ive had on other flights & a not particularly good IFE (then again, ive yet to have a flight that does), but the extra comfort endured for 7hrs was worth it. Only reason Im not doing that route again (rtn connection not the best), was the cost - could have done return PE with VS for same price on required dates.

Actually those business only flights look cool, its like up graded PE
seats go further back, a little more privacy as the seats dont quite
go parallel to each other and the food is similar to UCS.

However they came out at £700 to £1000 each way.

Personally I have always flown as SLF, however if I were to pay to go into PE I would expect more than VS currently offer. I'm looking forward to seeing how PE evolves later in the year, agreed it is just an extension of coach, maybe people are expecting more of a business class - or a half coach/uc?

[preiffer]

The problem is, while people may be expecting half of UC, they don't seem willing to pay half the cost of Upper Class... [:I]

It's all well and good complaining about the costs of the service, but at face value (assuming restricted / lowest bucket fares):

PE = 2x Economy fare (SFO = £750 vs £330 )
Upper = 3-4x PE fare (SFO = £2,500 vs £780 )

So, I wonder how full that cabin would be if the legroom were increased, but prices went up by 50% vs existing levels... [:?]

Maybe there should be a "premium premium economy" (or just drop the economy title) with different food to Y and maybe slightly more legroom!:)

Cheers,
VS045

Fair enough point - expectations not being reality are always an issue and always will be (goddam free will [}:)]).
I generally dont have too high expectations of PE, although at same time Im a little excited to be getting my first flight at that level. I expect a roomier, comfier seat than I would in Economy, but beyond that I dont mind as long as its a good flight.
Im personally looking at PE from an added comfort factor due to my height & current bulk (first session at gym yesterday though, so hopefully can lose a few inches before I fly in June).

I think the name doesnt help some people... "Premium Economy" is far catchier than something like "The just like Economy, but with a bigger seat section". "Premium" also brings to mind better quality & suggests a better service etc. - just in the same way many hotels have "Deluxe" rooms which some dont think are worth the extra while others pay for the extra 25sq inches or whatever difference you get , but if you want a real difference splash out 2/3/4 times more & take the suite.

Okay, I only really read the first two pages because I came on this after it was already on page 5, but I'll just say my opinion, and just FYI, I've only flown WT+ and not PE. I personally think VS should redo their entire class linup, if not now then later. They should really have four classes in my opinion.

[preiffer]

Originally posted by VS-EWR
I personally think VS should redo their entire class linup, if not now then later. They should really have four classes in my opinion.

Umm.... you need to expand on that a little, Nick!

How would you redo the lineup? What 4 classes? What services? Why?

Well I don't know, I mean, IMHO BA has it spot on, an economy class, a better, more comfortable economy class; a business class, and a first class. Right now it seems as though VS is struggling with PE because they're trying to make it into sort of a business / premium economy cabin and I don't think that really works. As long as the four classes are prices reasonably I think that's the best plan for any legacy carrier. I think it's better to adhere to the different types of fliers instead of just forcing them into a different cabin.

As for services, I'm not sure. If I were running VS and I hate the four classes then I would keep the PE and EC services pretty much the same (Because IMO all PE passengers should expect are better seats and the same EC services), and then have uber snazzy stuff for the business and first classes. Basically services would be ranked from lowest to highest: EC-PE-UC-First.

[preiffer]

OK... What services would you ADD to First to improve the experience over Upper?

(And more importantly, going back to the topic title - what does adding a 4th class of service do to the Premium Economy product?)

[Scrooge]

I dont think VS has ever realy sold PE as a biz class,I think it's more of a marketing mess,they are selling something that the airline cannot produce.

Of course they do the same for Y and as everyone knows the VS Y product is in general very good...as long as you dont have any legs,if you have legs then the flights can get pretty nasty.

I know on my first PE trip I was let down by it.The cabin was great (744 70C need I say more?) however for me it was the food,to be paying $XXX more than a Y I felt that the food was the biggest let down.

Even if they were to just throw it on to a plate it would make it seem better.


Not wanting to take the thread off topic,but I see no point in VS offering a 4th class of service.Once you start asking for the type of fares that a true first class fare gets you start limiting the number of pax you can attract,while there may be some that would look at VS and maybe give it a try there are a good deal more that would not.

EWR (I dont mean this as a put down BTW) take a read of this and this,these are what true 1st class products are,do you think VS could come close? I would hope so,but I get the feeling that in the end the bean counters would make a mess of it [:#],though they may be allowed the red pillows [y].

Oh I don't mind the criticisms at all, hell I'm starting to doubt my own idea as well. I'm just sort of jealous when I see these extravagant pictures of BA, Cathay, Singapore, and Emirates first class products where VS don't even come close. Because to tell you the truth I would rather fly in PE than in UC, the UCS looks like a coffin. Sure it's a great inovation, but I much prefer seats on airplanes than beds - no matter was the class.

Anywho, to get back on the topic of Premium Economy, I think VS should make the food better, which seems to be a common feeling; I think they should also do what someone else suggested, stop serving the food on the cart. I never thought of this last touch, but the more I think about it, the more it appeals to me as one of those small touches that could really make PE distinctive and more attractive. I can't really add more, because as I said before, I haven't actually been in PE.