Thoughts about Premium Economy

I agree with much of what has already been said before, but - didn't someone say here that PE makes VS the most revenue? Maybe that's wrong, as aa full price UC costs much more - but then again, a full price costs a lot more than any other special rate and certainly a hell of a lot more than economy. So yeah, I do feel PE is being eroded - fact is (and I guess I'm generalising here) that many who fly PE have gone beyond having small familes in tow, they (we!) oay the extra for more room, less noise - but yeah, I'm afraid I DO expect more than just that, to justify the extra cost involved. Surely, surely, PE is long overdue an overhaul - it isn't a poor man's UC, but neither should it be just a notional upgrade fron economy.

OK, my soapbox is going away now! Thanks for listening to my gripes....[B)]

[Scrooge]

It has the highest profit MARGIN of any cabin.

[preiffer]

...and that margin is based on £/sqft of aircraft space, I believe. So based on the space allocated per passenger, yes - I'm sure it's the most lucrative by far.

(As for wanting to fly PE over UCS because you get to be seated - umm... UCS has a seat, too )

Originally posted by jetwet1
It has the highest profit MARGIN of any cabin.

Thanks for confirming that Dave - I thought I'd read that! All the more reason to consider keeping those good folks happy then, I'd have thought. But - when does reason come into these things?

I would think that VS have a problem targeting PE at a particular audience. Generally I would have thought that 80% of UC pax (especially out of LHR) are business pax and probably about 80% of Y is leisure.

The problem is that many businesses, especially the smaller/middle size ones are also making fairly extensive use of PE as an alternative to Y - many of the VF members (myself included) fly PE regularly on business. Likewise PE appeals to your more casual leisure punters that are willing to pay a bit more for reasonable comfort. This makes adding extra's a bit difficult as what appeals to business travellers (lounge, seat power, miles) may not appeal to leisure travellers in the same way.

BTW - why does VS not go the full un-PC and call PE middle class or just mid-class - or rename their cabins Gold / Silver and erm Red!

Phil

Adding a few more touches to PE would also tempt a few more people to pay that bit more and move up from Y! If I wasn't as tall and needed the space I would be more inclined to travel in Y - same food and, although welcome, priority baggage and check in don't come close to making up the cost difference.

I still find it difficult to get my head around a full fare J ticket making less money for VS than a PE ticket.

[preiffer]

JP -

I believe it's that the full fare J ticket makes less profit per sq.ft than a FULL FARE PE Ticket (W). (You have to compare Discount vs Discount and FF vs FF for it to be relevant).

If you factor in the staff allocated, DTCI, check-in staff, limos, CH's, space taken, etc. per passenger - then it all eats into that margin that PE still holds. (assuming no Gold card)

And BA also say that WT+ makes the most margin of any class of travel. So clearly it's good for the airlines and should be good for the passengers.

I agree with all those who say that the marketing of PE is a bit hit and miss. Back when it was new the 38" was a good message as well as some of the frills like the check in. However now it does need some shoosh! Welcoming the changes notified elsewhere here the one thing that Virgin could do is make the legroom 40"+ ...

Oh, another comment, I've heard lots of people in business where the policy is economy transatlantic travel say that they book PE. Biz people do use PE in spades and not all firms will put you (me to often [:?]) in UC. But to market PE to biz risks denegrating UC ... hmmm how would we do it?

Originally posted by preiffer
JP -

I believe it's that the full fare J ticket makes less profit per sq.ft than a FULL FARE PE Ticket (W). (You have to compare Discount vs Discount and FF vs FF for it to be relevant).

I think you have to measure the margin on 2 UC tickets against the profit margin on about 5 PE tickets.

It's a fairly good indication that PE is profitable when you consider the expansion of PE (by 10 seats or about 35%) on the 346s. Obviously makes more sense to put in PE than expand Y. PE has always been in high demand hence the high prices - maybe with the future increased capacity VS feel they need to further increase demand.

Phil

Surely, surely, PE is long overdue an overhaul - it isn't a poor man's UC, but neither should it be just a notional upgrade fron economy.
Claire hit the nail on the head there. I am old enough to remember when VS launched it with a lot of razmatazz as MID CLASS back in about 1992. It was quickly upgraded on the Classics (but not the new A343s for some reason) to have legrests, etc. Many other embellishments were planned or rumoured, but alas didn't materialise. Perhaps due to the need to upgrade UC with J2000 etc. and then It also got changed to the rather ambiguous "Premium Economy" around 1994, after which it was left to decline. I believe there was a change of (Marketing or Product) management about the same time, with the new broom not up to the standard of the old?
With regard to the profit margins, this is obviously per square foot of fares actually paid, rather than 'mythical" full fares, and number of seats occupied. Most flights I've been on PE has been full and UC has had a few empty at least. Also as a business traveller booking fairly late, I've had to pay full-fare W to get a seat.
They obviously realise that there is now competition from established airlines discounted J-class (OK not as good as UC but much better than PE) and the charters PE products and the new business only airlines from Stanstead to NYC and now IAD. Also perhaps they will try to get MORE revenue per seat from the "New PE" (no let's call it Mid Class!). Perhaps full fare W will stay the same and discounted tickets and upgrades increase.
With regard to questions on the other thread about which routes will the new A346 operate, it is possible they will TRY to use it on particular flights where they have sold a lot of PE tickets, especially when this a/c is joined by it's new sisters later in the year (another 4 in 2006?).
Still it looks like things are moving the right direction.
Phil

Originally posted by preiffer
(As for wanting to fly PE over UCS because you get to be seated - umm... UCS has a seat, too )

I know...but I still find the UCS claustrophobic and uncomfortable.

Originally posted by jaguarpig
I still find it difficult to get my head around a full fare J ticket making less money for VS than a PE ticket.

So do I - am so glad I'm not the only one. Perhaps someone can do us a diagram!

I just called Virgin (about clubhouse) and got passed around - eventually ended up speaking to someone in gold! She was really quite unhelpful - during the course of my conversation, I mentioned my dissatisfaction with PE and the fact that its benefits are now seriously eroded. Her suggestion was that I write in - but hell, I've already done that!

Maybe we should consider a concerted effort and descend en masse, letter and complaint-wise????

With BA, you know that WT+ is what it says - Y+. PE seems to confuse many people as they expect something in between Y and J. I don't think this is meant to be the case - it is meant to be closer to Y than J, hence the price.
Nevertheless, I believe that the whole "economy" label should be done away with and the PE service upgraded. Not the seats mind, just the actual serive. I think different food to Y would be great - it should be somewhere in between Freedom and well ordinary. Maybe an upgraded version of the two meat and one vegetarian option style. I doubt that most people would miss paying an extra £10-20 for better food.
I'm not saying we need gold plated china and gourmet meals - just an upgrade from the regular "plane food."
Also, I think the dedicated FA and WCs is a step in the right direction.

Cheers,
VS045

Do seem to be rather a lot of us feeling a similar way.

Virgin has always been good at staying ahead of the competition. However, could the competition be catching up?

BA will soon start to fit AVOD into its Boeing 747s and 777s. Also look at First Choice's Premium cabin. It looks great, has widescreen AVOD, nice meal presentation etc. Could other charter airlines follow?

To enhance the current PE product (meals, menu cards etc) wouldn't actually cost that much per passenger. The extra cost could easily be added to the ticket cost without anyone really noticing.

[Scrooge]

Thats one thing I would like to see changed,if I remember rightly I had problems with the screen when the pax in front fully reclined their seat.

Someone mentioned the dicount biz airline(s) flying JFK-STN,when checking prices they pretty much beat VS PE by some margin,now this has been gone over in other threads,but a person that flys for vacations,not for business I do have to take a serious look at the products being offered and the price,to be honest I can see me flying MaxJet a fair bit if they ever make over here to the left coast.

Ah yes, I did hear something about MaxJet. Flying from Stansted would be excellent for me, I live that side of London so far easier to get to the airport.... let me go check it out, VS could be losing a couple of passengers here.... but perhaps they're not bothered.[:?]

My goodness, the prices on MaxJet DO compare!

Would I also be right in thinking that Stansted wont have the same restrictions as LGW/LHR under Bermuda2 treaty/agreement? Given its only a London airport in name, not location ??

Just did a search for my dates in June - would have cost me £1700 return for 2 , which is approx. what VS quoted me.
Flight from GLA/EDI to STN is also much cheaper (although cant be checked through)...
Not only that - i could have had row 1 both ways![:0]
With IAD promo I could have gotten 2x returns for £1191 (total)!!!!
Thats less than Im paying VS !?!?!?!

[Scrooge]

It seems to me that these promo's are running pretty much non stop,not a bad idea to get people in seats,could be kind of like the movie from coach to PE to UC,once you go up a level you dont want to go back.

btw I just searched lowest fares - if you want more flexibility you can have it at a cost...

Portable TV as well - meaning you can still watch whilst guy in front reclines his chair 160degrees. Are there other airlines offering this in any class, or is it quite unique (vs fixed-headrest screens?)

Im still looking forward to my first VS flight though (& hopefully more in the years thereafter!)& have the knowledge if there is a problem then there are a few flights they can move me too, rather than needing an overnight stay waiting on the next plane's arrival...

I've posted many times how virgin need to differencite PE more from Economy

Although if recent changes in the fc are reflected in in flight services, we may see changes

Now wouldn't that be great - but I won't hold my breath...